In-cab filming of drivers for disciplinary reasons OK’d by Calif. attorney general

| February 21, 2014

California’s attorney general has concluded carriers contracting companies that provide continuous video of drivers may use this data for disciplinary purposes.

Trucking executives have not violated state code if they take action against an employee based on film provided by these third-party companies. A carrier can contract a third-party business to film and inspect video for the “for sole benefit of the driver’s employer,” Kamala Harris stated.

Related

Caught on camera? Carriers dabble in filming drivers

Some carriers have started using a new method in eliminating accidents and absolving themselves of fault in accidents that do occur: Video cameras that film ...

Companies record with front-facing and/or driver-facing video cameras in a continuous loop until a trigger event, such as a driver braking hard or swerving. State code allows the recorder to “store no more than 30 seconds before and after a triggering event.” If the video is used for training or disciplinary purposes, the recording is available to the driver or the driver’s bargaining representative.

Harris issued the Feb. 13 opinion upon request from Sen. Jerry Hill. The Democrat caucus chairman had asked if discipline of drivers based on contracted third-party’s video would considered a misdemeanor under a 1929 state statute prohibiting blacklisting.

This California law prohibits fingerprinting or photographing employees and job applicants for the purpose of interfering with future employment. The statute fell out of use after the National Labor Relations Act was enacted in 1935, aimed at protecting workplace rights.

Harris’ opinion noted recent changes in state and federal law regarding the recorders.

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Reader: ‘I’d drive naked!’ — More on in-cab facial video monitoring

Readers respond to the question "Would you drive if your carrier had a camera pointed at your face or the road?" Sound off yourself here.

Last spring, the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration granted a two-year extension of an exemption allowing these recorders to be attached to truck windshields.

The exemption had been requested by Lytx, formerly DriveCam, a leading provider driver safety and compliance systems. 

In 2012, California lawmakers amended state code to allow attachments to windshields or rear mirrors. The exemption allows a “video event recorder with the capability of monitoring driver performance to improve driver safety.”

Click here to see more information on California law regarding recorders and data from California’s Department of Motor Vehicles.

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  • g

    Yep this is a big seller among truck drivers. We want to be Filmed, watched, monitored, observed, ordered around, abused. Really Fun. Freedom of the Open Road. Enjoyable Occupation.

  • g

    Some pimple faced “dispatcher” will WATCH the slave/driver…via Camera and determine if the driver needs to be “Disciplined” and Punished?? Sound like lots of fun.

  • Steve Paris

    The next step will be the NSC holding on to the recordings just in case drivers become a threat to national security. Should just find a way to hang a smiley face air freshener over the camera.

  • ironage

    It is up to individual drivers to make a decision for themselves if this is a “deal breaker”. If you are not willing to resign from a company who installs cameras aimed at the driver…then do not complain about them.

    As far as i’m concerned, and this is true for most of the drivers that i know, i will NOT work for ANY company that installs them….facing the driver. If all companies eventually install them…i will find another line of work. Just my opinion.

  • Tom T

    It is Calif. after all. If this dose not send drivers to other lines of work, I suppose they would put up with anything. My tolerance level was reached three years ago, thank goodness I was ready for retirement anyway. Any thinking person willing to give a days work for a days pay and be home every night from a normal work life, should be a no brainer to give it up, unless you might be an ex-con in which case you would not
    mind being locked up in a small place with having someone watch you 24 hours a day and getting written up for this or that idiotic infraction of meaningless regulations. Of course you do get out to eat and shower.

    I wonder what the Teamsters think about all this. Of course if your a generous person you might now appreciate the fact that the panoramic view from your travels is now shared with your friendly dispatcher who

    will no your lying when your three hours late and you tell him you were sitting in a traffic jam. Congratulations, your now a fish in a fishbowl.

  • g22p

    If you truck in California you get what deserve

  • Barney

    Hell..no. No way I’ll work for a company that does this. PERIOD.

  • mousekiller

    My sentiments exactly. Where and when is BS going to stop. It is not the truck drivers that need monitoring. It is the idiots in their 4 wheelers.

  • goverment mule

    go Ukraine,!!! they had enough and took their country back. Americans are cell phone drones, too lazy to do anything about any new law so they keep piling them on. We complain on line and wait for the next one. Just dropped California Friday, but 20 more states want to adopt their laws. I will be done soon enough. I think it’s time for the good old time teamsters again.

  • JERICO

    This is a situation that has come up due to drivers not standing up for themselves. Drivers are just as much citizens as any other class of workers. If drivers let this happen, it is their own fault.

    Drivers are being held more accountable for their lives to a much higher degree than any other occupation in the world. We are told when we can work, when we must sleep, and where we must sleep at. We were told those things, but that was still not enough.

    Now they want EBORs to ensure that we are not lying, and cameras to see we are not lying. There is not another occupation/profession that requires so much verification of what they do, or when they do it.

    Then when you do try to sleep in the berth, they do not care whether you freeze or burn up. They just want you to go to bed without concern to your well-being.

    After nearly 40 years for myself, and 17 years for my wife, we said, “Enough is Enough!” We do not have to put up with all the Big Brother shenanigans that are coming your way.

    We were ready to say that’s it, and we have left the profession we so dearly loved, but had come to greatly dislike. It was a decision we made, and we have never regretted it for a moment. Every time we look at the tractor/trailer just sitting in the driveway, we say that we all needed this! I know the truck doesn’t mind, for she hasn’t complained one bit!!!

    If you think for a moment that this will only happen in California, you need to wake up. The handwriting is on the wall. You need to send a message NOW to the entire country that you will not stand for this. If you let this happen, you will let anything happen.

    There is not one driver out there that is not qualified to do something else in life. You have led yourselves to believe that you cannot do anything else. If you are a company driver, you could be an employee in many other occupations. If you are an O/O, once you shut that truck down, you will no longer have the great expenses associated with trucking. Therefore, you can live with the lesser expenses. Don’t think this is all you can do. You are just as good as anyone else. If they can make it without trucking, you can do it too!

    For those that choose to stay with trucking, we wish you all the best. However, you cannot say you have not been forewarned. Be careful out there. We still admire your courage to face things you cannot control. Hopefully, you will be able to withstand the weight of those who know nothing about the world of trucking, but are able to control you as if you know absolutely nothing and they know what is best for everyone.

    May God be with all of you!

  • Mind Games

    Yep time to move on to another profession, when drivers start losing their stuff in civil lawsuits due to these cameras that’s when the s*** will hit the fan and drivers love their boats, four wheel drives and their fishing rods.
    This is the environment that is ripe for an insurrection and yes the government knows this and yes they DO have the balls to keep poking the stick at many weak minded people because they know they have those people in a mental cage that controls them because the weak minded will not fight back.
    If you have not gone to YouTube and peeped 1984 the movie, well I really feel sorry for you because like the frog in the water you do not know that you are just about cooked…. YET!!!
    Prepare America the revolution is coming! Brought to you by Big bribed big brother sponsored by corporate America INC! Script written by corrupt lawyers INC!
    And now time for our sponsor…

  • Mind Games

    This is the hilarious part of this situation, lawyers suing trucking companies and yep in many situations rightly so. Then another government paid lawyer writes a camera in all trucks law to protect a trucking company from being sued by the street lawyer and instead of tort reform they chase the driver down and turn on him like a pack of wild dogs???
    People hang up your keys and sit back and watch the movie!
    If all drivers did the script would change overnight!
    This is a late night game show if I ever saw one!!! And drivers are stupid enough to walk on stage hoping to win the prize behind door number 3 (Which actually door number 666) and about the only thing they are gonna do is lose their souls for pennies on the dollar.

  • whtlinefvr

    I would argure that some truckdrivers do need them lets go back to last year Jorge Espinoza looking at porn on his smart phone while driving a tanker and killing an Arizona Highway Patrol officer. I am a truckdriver and would have no problem with in cab cameras for the simple fact I am a Profesional and i’m not worried about what anyone sees!

  • Happy Canuck

    All I can say is I am glad I am a Canadian and I don’t have to drive in that slave oriented country (USA). It used to be the blacks that were your slaves now it is the truck drivers. I am a Canadian driver and I did run the U.S. years ago, but with the arrogant BS from many brain washed truck drivers (who think their country is the greatest) and custom officials I took a stand and said I will not enter into that country again. I am trucking here and doing fine. You should take a look at our Hours of Service. We can drive 13 hours a day and do split sleeper berths etc. We can turn your 14 hour day into 16 hours in Canada; for example eating or having a break. The US forces drivers to get as much in 14 hours as possible with only 30 minute break which is still part of their 14 hours. UNBELIEVABLE. Take a good look around. Do you really think the USA is the greatest country. Hell we Canadians seen that years ago how screwed the U.S. is. Sorry drivers but the USA SUCKS BIG TIME. How much money does the USA owe to other countries! WOW. If you still think you have the greatest country in the world than you get what you deserve. I can’t believe they are going to put cameras in the trucks. What happens when the company sees you masturbating as all truckers do. I would like some privacy when I do that while looking at a girl in a car with her top down. Oh ya in Ontario women do not have to wear tops. I love our country; at least for now. As long as we don’t follow any ideas the USA has.

  • Mind Games

    I will give you guys the lowdown and then hopefully no one else will post something naive and I gotta respond to that too…. People please look at your history books they too in the heyday of Communism said the same thing “I have nothing to hide why should I worry”.
    This was spoken by those who wished to keep their heads up their rear ends and keep em there!
    In this country you have been allowed to have just barely enough freedom to keep you passive and thus many of you try to compare America to a 3rd world impoverished country?
    Compare America to America and tell me what you see! Compare America to what the founding fathers had in mind and tell me what you see!
    I’ll tell you right now its not what they had in mind, all this technology and we waste it monitoring our own damn people?!?!?!?!?!?!
    Look all the cameras in the world will not! I repeate will not! Stop any accident! If any one of us so chooses we can commit jihad against corporate America against Big Brother at anytime camera no camera period end of story!
    The company can screw you out of a days or weeks pay to pay for something you didn’t do and the government can lock you up for the same scenario and so what’s the point of cameras???
    Let your mind expand and find the true answers…

  • ironage

    There is no question that the U.S. has been very misguided as of late, especially over the last 20 years or so.

    However, let’s not revise history here. Canada would not even exist as a viable country if it were not for the U.S.

    Because of Canada’s location, they have always greatly benefitted from American “know-how” and technology. The VAST majority of corporations in Canada are U.S. firms. Canada is completely dependent on trade with the U.S.

    The Canadian government can dump huge amounts of money into social programs because they don’t have to invest too heavily in their military because, like Western Europe, they live under American military protection.

    If you are “masturbating” while looking at topless women driving down the road, as you say, then i truly hope you DO stay in Canada.

  • ironage

    The fact that there was a camera facing him did not stop him from playing with his cell phone, did it?

    An outward facing camera, combined with the computer monitoring technology, could have told the authorities everything they needed to know about that driver and his lack of professionalism.

    Unfortunately, that camera did not prevent that trooper from dying.
    Punishing every driver in the country for the bad behavior of a few is not right.

  • Tom T

    And Bless you and your wife and may you now find peace. You have been at it for 40yrs. then you know as well as I (45) and retired, it is far too late. You obviously lived through de-regulation. That was the beginning of the end and when they started doing warrant-less searches of trucks at the scales, that opened the door for other abuses. I met a Russian driver before I retired who told me he had more freedoms in Russia than he does here. Sad.Good luck to you both. My wife and I are happy with our decision to give it up.

  • Tom T

    May I add, it might be coming, but at least we don`t have speed limiters on our trucks as they are forced to do in Canada, and I also resent his ignorant inference that we do what he has stooped to do in his truck. Only a moron would think everybody acts the same way he does while driving. Judging from his gutter type comments he must be a product of the state run educational system they have in Canada. I am glad he has decided to stay there.

  • Tom T

    I agree. And people like Whiteline are the reason the industry is in the shape it is in. That “I am a professional” mind set works well till he gets unjustly screwed and he wakes up and realizes the name of the game is “turnover” and his time has come to go, and it will, I`ve seen it any number of times and you know what? when it happens they are generally the people who protest the loudest with the proverbial question, “what happened”? Let`s face it, the only way to keep wages and rates down are to keep throwing new people behind the wheel. It`s a no-brainer. They don`t know any better. Any thinking person would by now realize that if they were really serious about driver retention they would not have a 125% turnover rate by now.
    But this has all been said before by many others. Same game different players.

  • Big Good Bob

    I hate to say it but California does not want trucks on their roads, to bad most truckers who drive in California see it. I say Boycott any deliveries to California and make their intrastate drivers who wish to go interstate do it that is if they can pass interstate regulations

  • Semper Fi

    As an O/O with my own authority I have a forward looking recorder for my own protection. My opinion, if you dont like what your company does, buy your own truck and do what you want, when you want. I did it, so can anyone else that has a little drive. I have never made this much money in my life. My early years were in the Marine Corps; most of you have no idea what having a bad day really is. I hear so many complaints, get off your ass and do it yourself. The only person stopping you, is you…..I cant wait to read the excuses why not.

  • Mind Games

    Bob it not that they do t want trucks in the state its just they want to stop out of state trucks from coming in. This is because some legislator took a bribe in the cloke and dagger move called lobbying and you can multiply that by 10 on the congressional and senate level.
    Instead of going after California we drivers should stand up for the constitution as it is written and give all of those large companies their keys back and sit at home till the big brother attitude in Washington DC is completely dismantled across the board or till these large companies go out of business!

  • Mind Games

    @Simper that is not your truck technically speaking. It belongs to the government. Look on the side one more time at those numbers that give you permission to drive.

  • Mind Games

    @ Simper I’d think twice before I installed one. Its a twin edge knife!

  • Daniel R Kupke Sr

    It’ll stop dead in its tracks when the drivers of this country realize what we have in our hands on a daily basis and how good of a life-style we could have if we would all just stick together ?? We control the flow of everything this country has !!! Why do we settle for being treated like criminals and second class citizens ?? STAND YOUR GROUND n when u see one of your fellow drivers doing this when they r giveing him a hard time go n support him stand shoulder to shoulder with this man and things will change !! Whether it’s in a scale-house or a DOT inspection site what-ever the cause or place go to his aid !! Stay out of Cal n don’t haul anything in or especially out and stay out of the scale-houses people !! U R a fish in a barrel at that point n they r god n judge n jury ect ect !!!

  • Ken Nilsen

    Can someone please tell me which major careers there are where you are not watched? Let’s see. Mcdonalds Hamburger flipper, has a supervisor of some sort watching them the entire shift. A dispatcher at a trucking company has a team leader watching them. An assembly line worker has someone watching them. Here are the facts.

    1. In a company truck there is no reason why there cannot be a camera there to see how company equipment is being handled and managed. The company buys the truck, insures the truck, maintains the truck, manages the financials of the truck. The company pays the driver and the driver as a responsible employee should do as the company asks as long as it does not violate safety laws.

    2. If you do not want to be watched then like another poster said, buy your own truck and do your own thing.

    3. While a camera will not prevent a collision it can help a company review and possibly retrain a driver with bad habits.

    4. It is not the government that is doing this it is privately held corporations. The courts should have never been involved in the first place. Every corporate workplace is monitored either by cameras or human beings.

  • MercenaryMan

    I dont need a camera in my face to be an Adult, and anybody who does should NOT be a Truck Driver, Cameras arent going to stop a lawbreaker from breaking the law, backing into someones truck etc…A camera is an affront to my personal privacy, and Ill NEVER allow any company to do it…..the person who believes a camera on my face will make me act responsible, ISNT RESPONSIBLE….This is ludicrous, and frankly Ill retire and leave this business before I let some dispatcher watch me in my “HOME” on the road….Were they should put these Cameras FULL TIME is in Congress, in the board rooms, so we can watch the back door deals and money transfers as Lobbys and Special interests Bribe and Cajole the “Lawmaker” thats where the cameras need to be….24/7

  • MercenaryMan

    The East German Stassi had more cameras in there citys then anywhere on earth, it didnt prevent that wall from getting torn down and repressive laws tossed out, its time to do some tossing out, and if you feel comfortable on camera, go take that job. America is quickly becoming the Stassi of the United States…

  • bigred

    LOL,,A professional huh!!! Wait til one these other professionals catches you get out of your lane, roll through a stop sign, etc and send it to your company…Just another Dumass…

  • bigred

    A friend of mine could not find a job after his company moved to Mexico a couple of years ago, He is over 50 and with no other choice he went to one of the Truck driving schools and got a job with Transport America……He installed one of those dash cameras in case he DID have an accident and thought this would help him

    Well, lady pulled up on his drivers side at a T intersection and in his blind spot and he eased out and just bent her bumper and a couple of scratches. There was no lane for her and he thus sent his film in and when TA reviewed all 3.5 hours they found a couple of things he should not have done and Fired him..He had driven for 3 months and is not considered hireable to this point, 1 year later.

    So put your cams in and if you think they are looking for anything other than your mistakes, good luck.

  • Big Jim

    I drive for a carrier that has this system. As I drive I feel the constant stare and of being watched. I am never commended for the long and safe hours of driving I do. Instead, I have been falsely accused of speeding (SmartDrive system error), asked about a full stop at a drop lot stop sign, and other nick picky things.

    Also, the system failed to record a 4-wheeler that sideswiped my truck (naturally I got nailed for it as a preventable even though the driver admitted it was his fault). The reality is no matter where you stand on these systems, federal will soon require them in ALL trucks.

    My hope is that my doctor will soon get the same system. That way he can watch me to make sure I’m eating right and staying healthy, or in bathroom to make sure I’m doing things right, or in the bedroom when I’m having relations with the old lady to make sure my form is correct.

    And I’m all for having these systems in cars soon and have the feed go right to LEO. That way EVERYBODY will be safe and there won’t be anymore accidents whatsoever. Wow, it’ll be utopia at last. .

  • guest

    Yea thats what we need…a camera pointed in our faces Gawking at us…lol we dont have enuff troubles…we need to be Gawked at. Apparently things are only going to get WORSE for the Trucker as Technology is used to
    “Observe” the driver/boy/prisoner. Of course more COPS will be needed to chase after the Trucker..as he cant be trusted…he is a Born Criminal/second class citizen/Peasant. Cops MUST utilize all technology to Monitor and Observe the trucker and then PUNISH the trucker for all these Crimes he is always committing. Trucking has become a sickening JOKE.

  • guest

    “Deal”????? Whats the 20 on the DEAL???? lol.

  • ironage

    Your argument is a weak one. OTR companies recruit drivers to a very demanding and low paying job that keeps them away from their families for long periods of time… by using catch phrases like ” enjoy the freedom of the open road” or “be your own boss” . Comparing a job like OTR to ANY other job is a misnomer.

    OTR drivers have to live and work and be comfortable in that truck 24/7 …they do not get to go home at the end of the day.

    Between CSA 2010, low pay, and now inward facing cameras….the logic of becoming a truck driver has completely vanished. The pay for this job would have to be significantly higher to justify and put up with this level of harrassment.

    If they think the driver shortage is bad now….they haven’t seen anything yet.

  • Ken Nilsen

    Sir I am so sorry that you are intellectually incapable of forming an argument to the facts placed before you. Good Day Sir.

  • Ken Nilsen

    Sir, I am not comparing the quality of life or the type of work to any other job. If you had taken the time to see the root of the facts you would see the point I am trying to get across. There is no government demand here for cameras in the trucks. This is a PRIVATE company that wishes to contract another PRIVATE company to monitor how the equipment that the PRIVATE company owns is being operated. I will agree that for the most part the trucking of the 1950’s to 1980’s is over, but please tell me any other occupation that is done the same way as it was in 1940? This lifestyle can never be compared to any other form of work. If you also read the article you would note that these are loop cameras and the only data retained is just before and after a reportable incident. Do you really think that someone in an office has 50-100 screens in front of them constantly monitoring drivers? The nature of industry and consumerism is driving the changes in this occupation I have been a part of over 20 years. Also the nature of human beings has changed and is in large part driving this technological monitoring.

    Take the simple things that I notice everyday. Truckdrivers that park on fuel islands, speed in construction zones, fail to use turn signals, will not even speak when you say hello or good morning. The majority in this industry have no manners or sense of well being. They do not take care of themselves or give a rats ass about others. And you are surprised companies want to try and improve their situation?

  • ironage

    OK…i will challenge you, or anyone else, who ends up with one of these inward facing cameras to do an experiment. While the truck is sitting still during one of your ten hour breaks…simply cover the camera with something for a few hours. I will bet you a hundred dollars that someone from your safety department will call you and tell you to stop blocking the camera! (hint: i already know someone who did this) So much for the “loop”.

    As far as the government goes…i never said that they were “requiring” it. But…there is a strong likelihood that they will in the years to come.

    The point is… these PRIVATE companies that hire a PRIVATE company to install and monitor these cameras…also need PRIVATE employees to drive their PRIVATELY owned vehicles. And these PRIVATE employees are not going to take to kindly to it unless these PRIVATE companies stop paying poverty wages. When you pay shit wages…you get shit people….which explains all the terrible people you see in this industry. The people that seem to distress you so much.

  • mousekiller

    Up to a point I agree with you. However. and that is a big however, the recording on the newer cameras can be activated on in cab trucks by remote. The dispatcher/ safety dept etc can, just to see if the driver is actually in a traffic back up, weather ahead and of course is the driver behaving tired, scanning his dash and mirrors properly or just staring straight ahead being inattentive. has his feet on the dash and texting. Hundreds of reasons. That camera idea has been bandied about for years. It has only recently been a hot topic due to technology to operate remotely. with internet and blue tooth . That is the coming trend now. Not just a incident such as hard braking. Now Govt requirement NO? not yet, Insurance companies will more than likely demand it from some 2nd class or high risk carriers first. Then the govt will think it is a good idea and make it a requirement in CMV’s. The govt ignores their own statistics of the accident ratio between automobiles and CMV’s. 85 to 88% of car truck accidents are caused by the driver of the car.

    All of this crap being thrust upon us is for nothing but control. We are treated like the person on parole with an ankle bracelet .

  • mousekiller

    Tom,,,, You and i must have talked to the same Russian driver. I met one in CA. He had a NY address but stated he would not be found there .He told me that if obama was elected our country would do a 180 and what to expect. from what we call obama care to gestapo tactics to suppression of speech. So far he was 100 % right. From eobrs to cameras, to recordings, to the constitution being destroyed and the trucking industry the first to go. He also said that whom ever controls the transportation in this country controls this country. I couild tell he had a good education and evidently due to his knowledge he was privy to this in Russia . Enjoy your retirement. I hope to last 2 1/2 more years.

  • Spence

    The USA might not be the best place in the world but it certainly isn’t the worst place either. No place is perfect. If you like Canada and feel comfortable and at home there then good for you, I’m happy for ya. I can’t say I like all the rules and regulations that are being forced on us either. Unfortunately right now we have a narcissistic, marxist communist, muslim terrorist sympathizer for a president whom I personally didn’t vote for myself, is out to take America down with his policies, especially socialized medicine which Canada has and for the most part is a miserable failure. He is getting the job done !!! I just hope that it’s not too late for the U.S.A. to turn around, but it doesn’t look good to me. One thing we do still have here in the good old U.S. of A. is the right to keep and bear arms and own guns for self defense. You don’t !!!

  • Tom T

    You say you`ve been a part of this industry for a mere 20 yrs. What part are you, the dispatcher who likes to watch what`s going on?

  • Tom T

    No sense letting this guy get to you. He is what is known in the cyber world as a troll. He likes to start things taking the opposite side. He obviously has a prejudiced view of drivers. I have 45 yrs. as both a driver and an owner operator and if he really had 20 yrs. in the industry he would surely know that the companies are the main reason we have the large number of poor quality drivers. The will self insure, buy trucks that are all but accident proof, put up with 125% turn over rate, schemes such as per diam, merge with each other anything, but pay a decent wage. Then they will sit around at meetings and lobby for ability to flood the market with more cheap labor by crying ‘driver shortage. You hit the nail on the head when you said, “you get what you pay for”.

  • Tom T

    I think he makes a valid argument. As Calif. goes, so does the rest of the country, eventually. Proof is the environmental laws we see getting shoved down our collective throats.
    It is true that history has shown, the government people wind up with is exactly the government they deserve. I am also sorry you are not intelligent enough to make the connection.

  • Tom T

    I think he works for the video company that makes the cameras.

  • Go Navy

    Semper Fi nailed it. If you don’t want to be a victim – don’t be one.

  • Tom T

    The freedoms that you and I so proudly served for are being threatened, and yes my friend, your not the only one who knows what a bad day is in the Corps. What bothers me is the Constitution that we swore to defend is being trampled on by politicians who swore to uphold it and then ignore it or act like it dose not mean anything and go around it every chance they get. Bottom line is we are loosing the rights we stood up for. And by the way, I have been where you are and it is great till the IRS dose an audit on you back side or some large company comes in and steels your freight right out from under you with rates you can not possibly compete with. It
    is only a matter of time.

  • Tom T

    Thanks and all the best to you. You will make it. It`s all down hill for you now.

  • Tom T

    Semper Fi means “Always Faithful”. That is
    exactly what politicians are NOT doing when they swear to uphold the constitution. Dose not have much to do whether or not you inadvertently become a victim. Sigh.

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