EOBRs/ELDs are being put in the wrong place

S.E. McCurdy | February 19, 2014
The author of this op-ed is one half of the Landstar Ranger-leased duo of Susan and Warren McCurdy.

The author of this op-ed is one half of the Landstar Ranger-leased duo of Susan and Warren McCurdy. The pair became owner-operators “because we were newly married,” Susan says, “and I got the wanderlust.”

Electronic on-board recorders [or electronic logging devices] are forcing drivers to bear the financial burden of and accountability to the unreasonable and constantly changing and contradictory standards placed upon them by non-driving rulemakers. To me, EOBRs are being put in the wrong places. The devices should be placed at all the shippers and receivers in the country rather than in the trucks of this nation. When EOBRs are placed at the customer’s business, each time a driver shows up to load or unload, they bring in a time card and the customer time-stamps it. When they leave the customer, the customer time-stamps it again and they should be billed at $50 an hour for the driver’s time spent at their business.

Roadside inspection sites, toll booths, construction zones and inefficient fueling stations should also have to time-stamp a driver’s time card — and be billed for delays in their areas. 

Dispatchers, too, have an accountability role in driver efficiency and fatigue. When a driver calls in for a load, the dispatcher should record the time between the call and the dispatch and pay the driver accordingly for sitting.

The driver should be able to choose a driving time frame, meaning the time they start their work day, and not be dispatched at all hours regardless of time of waking and time of sleeping. With the current hours of service, the driver can be ordered to go to bed at 3 p.m. and expected to get back up again and drive 10 hours later, or 1 a.m. This is abnormal for the circadian rhythm of any person and grossly affects the driver’s ability to get sufficient rest in order to be healthy and alert. In other words, if their day starts at 7 a.m., and their load is ready at 3 pm, they will automatically receive $50 per hour for hours waiting and the end of the day is 9 p.m., regardless of miles traveled. 


Audio: Rich Wilson at MCSAC — ‘We need to hear more from drivers’

Though any FLSA reform wouldn't apply directly to owner-operators, some have made the argument that improved pay conditions for company drivers and corresponding rate-dynamics changes ...

Compensating drivers for their actual work hours will eliminate the perceived need to drive past the fatigue threshold and create safer and healthier working conditions for all truck drivers, keeping the four-wheelers safer too. 

This is time management where it counts. Determining the driver to be responsible for the inefficient operations of all these entities and situations is ludicrous. Holding customers and trucking agents responsible for wasting a driver’s hours, and paying the driver for all hours of their working day, is the most equitable system for maximizing a drivers time, safety and income. It places the burden of time management on those who are the most inefficient and creates the most desirable system for recruiting and retaining high-quality drivers.


FLSA reform, parking, detention: MCSAC prioritizes reauthorization recommendations

Reforming employee-driver compensation by removing the FLSA overtime exemption was among top recommendations, likewise expanding truck-parking availability, sleep apnea, further New Entrant attention and more.

This is not welfare, nor socialism, nor Big Brother interfering. It is the system that was in use by one of the largest privately held corporations in Wisconsin, Gateway Foods. We know this because we worked for them before we became owner-operators.


McCurdy encourages owner-operators to email or comment with their ideas and thoughts as to how to act in concert to affect “positive, sane and equitable conditions to make driving a profitable, enjoyable and safe occupation that will keep and recruit the best and brightest.” Post your own ideas for regulatory revision or new business practices in the comments here with your name, or email to tdills@randallreilly.com. We’ll get them out via our Voices section and Overdrive‘s Facebook page

  • John S

    As a Landstar BCO I say the same. Use the EOBR to properly pay drivers. We now can properly track miles, progress and delays at customers. Why is this not a priority? Because nobody wants to pay us for all that wasted time. I don’t want any part of EOBR without compensation. Why should I pay to have a EOBR when logs are free?
    Where is my incentive? So far EOBR are strictly to protect DOT regulations. Landstar is trying hard to get BCO’s onboard with webinars and installation incentives. But its not something I see of value so far.

  • Mind Games

    Logical, true and outstandingly correct but the prostitutes in DC would never go for it nor would their corporate pimps.
    I will give you this guy you are spot on and something I ran past a few good people at OOIDA and they said the cost would be the first thing that would come screening out of shippers mouthes.
    I’d be willing to bet it would be cheaper than e logs!
    Another point is this, its too much like right in a world of crooked politicians and or corporate owners aka pimps who love their Cadillacs and big trucks to pay us what they owe us since we are viewed as just simple little roaches to be stepped on when they get the urge.
    The prestigious prostitutes are calling my home in an effort to get me to help them keep and or get closer to the corporate pimps and I might add at my constitutional expense, let me see I think I’ll flip a quarter and hold my nose if I decide to go to the political suicide booths this year…

  • Leon

    Crap! This is brilliant! I think we should clock in and get paid for the time we spend at home too! Brilliant!

    How about this; fewer rules, not more? More freedom, not more regulations. How about we stop expecting someone else to make us more money, or safer, or happy? How about we start taking on this responsibility ourselves? How about, if we don’t like the way things are in our lives, WE change them, and not just whine and moan about the unfairness of being us?
    There are plenty of jobs out there where you can punch a clock and get paid by the hour. Lots! Like, most! Go! Be happy!

  • norman ott

    If we would go back to the old HOS and add the 34 hr restart that would work just as well.

  • Coffeeclue

    Excellent response! Thank you. If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

  • Coffeeclue

    If you act like a cockroach, you will be treated like one. Whenever I’m treated like a cockroach by a shipper, I ask for a supervisor. If I don’t like a load, I don’t take it. If I don’t get paid detention, I don’t unload. Stand up for yourself where it counts, don’t go running to the legislative mommy.

  • Shelley Scarbrough Hughes

    This was a well written article! I enjoyed reading it very much and like the fact a more realistic suggestion is being tossed out there. The truckers I have talked to that have already had them installed or were forced to have installed by the companies they are leased to say they don’t feel any safer or that safety has come from the installation. The last couple of snow storms on the east coast have pretty well shown the recorders didn’t make them any safer! Most say it has created more rage in them by having to drive like mad once the driving time has started and having to stop so much sooner to start finding a place to park for the night, or day which ever time frame it falls into on that day. You can’t flip or turn some ones sleeping pattern on and off like a light switch. What happened to the days of common sense where you slept when you were tired, and you eat when you are hungry? This is drastically going to hurt the small business people like the ones that have their own authority, drive themselves and have no employees. I look to see a lot of the old timers throw in the towel or go out of business over the electronic logs, all the EPA restrictions they are wanting to purpose, and the talk of raising the fuel taxes in all states once again. America depends on them. You think there is a driver shortage out there now, just wait!

  • Mike Smith

    A shipper I deal with consistently takes 2-4 hrs. to get me in and out. This is killing me. The shippers do need to be timed.

  • Mind Games

    Look people in the industry we are in we will never have less rules because someone will always stand to gain from our errors and or mistakes and yes accidents are included in that as well.
    A government that has acted like a referee in days gone by has always been fair to a point more or less, however in the last 30 years or so Congress and the Senate have been on a mad race to take more bribes than the other guy and yes we can get back to those days if we start voting for the guy who has less dirt than the other guy on a local level and jot reward any to higher positions if they do take any money from special interest groups.
    Less government yes I agree as far as personal affairs are concerned but when it comes to the people vs the rich corporate owners you damn right I want a powerful referee involved to mediate a fair deal for the both of us because if he wins I win and if I win he wins but 60-40 90-10 just does not work for either side.
    What many of you are not able to see is this message of less government is the same as telling half he DOT and he FMCSA go screw ya self you don’t need a job so we need to fire you and ask yourself what would you do? Go dig up a goldmine of data to justify the your job of course even if you hafta lie on drivers to keep your job.
    Yes we need to shut America down!!!!!!! But what tactics would to use?
    Martin Luther King a message of peacefull non violence?
    Malcolm X a message of let’s get it on???
    Jimmy Hoffa a message of Unions???? Not as long as you keep screaming less government which is the same corporate backed messages you hear on rightwing radio!
    As long as right wing and left wing radio keep flooding our trucks with mixed messages over XM Radio you will never have drivers come together to stop the screwing game.

  • MercenaryMan

    If this system were put in place the “Issue’ would rear its ugly head and never be put back in the bottle. Drivers are told to go and pick up, only to arrive and the loads not ready, they cant sleep because the lot doesnt allow that, and or they are stuck in a Line of trucks all waiting. Then after getting delayed an Hour or two there told to get that load down there, there waiting for it, you drive straight down and get onto the property to be told to park in a waiting lane, and again, you sit for hours sometimes, you cant sleep, and security continually chatters on the CB channel your told to monitor while waiting for your door assignment.

    This is your weekly routine, the driving to and there sint the issue, its Loading, and Unloading…appt times are a mythical thing that means nothing, yet you cant get on the property without it, yet it means nothing as your told to Monitor channel 3 and wait for your door #….

    3-4 Hours a day is wasted sitting, waiting, in fuel islands, truck stops, parking lots due to lack of either a efficiant system to process the trucks, a security guard whose job is to learn english while on the job, and a never ending wait to get in a door you had an appt for an hour or two before, yet you are the one hurried and harrassed, and driven to make up for the lost time….

    The systems broken, its not drivers…that timestamp needs to be nationally embraced and yes used as a way to charge detention, and encourge warehouses to hire more labor, add forklifts, add data entry thats more efficient.

    Truck stops need a fast fuel lane, with a attendant, they get you in, scan your barcode, charge the fuel and out you go…there are ways to make it better, same with scales, when one truck is inspected 6 times in 5 months, this is a waste of resources, when a sticker showing a successful record of inspections is ignored and “things” are created to be wrong when none is…such as tire chafing, scuff marks, etc….

    Drivers opinions are not respected, I read in these columns everyday good ideas, but some Suit with a college degree, a Masters of Communications, and Art, knows more then I, or my fellow drivers what our life and what we deal with, YOU DONT LISTEN…and its very frustrating when MONEY buys a regulation, that takes money from my Table, but you dont listen, so you can assure your JOB SECURITY.

  • middlefinger

    until we stand together we will be treated anyway they want to treat us. in just 1 election if we stood together and voted every incumbant out of office they would listen to us then. hell will freeze over before that happens though.

  • bigred

    I say >>>Remember Atlanta about a month ago!!! Did any of the hundreds of trucks stop when the ice and snow started?? Heck, no, the time clocks had started and they wanted to try and feed their families. That debacle was caused by the EOBR~S and it won`t be the first or the last….Vega texas about 2 months ago, 8 big trucks and 5 cars were involved at about the 30 mm on I 40 and 2 killed, one a truck driver that had gotten out of his truck to ck on other accident victims and was hit by one of the four wheelers..None of the vehicles stopped for the Inch deep ice on the road, I was close to both of these……I STOPPED.

    EOBR~S and safety<<<<<<<<I should say not.

  • Ramus

    Finally somebody talking the language of reason. I am both owner and the driver, and their excuse that they are protecting drivers from being abused by their business owners is insane. There are thousands of us who are both drivers and owners and we know the best that both businesses and drivers are suffering from these laws. Circardian Rhytm? Who sleeps 10 hours? Every medical book will agree that 7 hours is enough to restore all 4 phased of sleep. Why 70 hours in 7 days? Doctors in training write prescription orders, do surgeries, round on patients for over 100 hours weekly. Nobody regulates them. They do not have log books. What is easier to do, hod steering wheel in one lane, or calculate insulin dosages when one wrongly placed comma can kill a patient. And yet this a daily routine in the hospitals. On call doctors stay up to 45 hours with no rest. no sleep. Why is one branch, namely medicine so not regulated, and trucking business so over-regulated. How many hours we made our lives and lives of others unsafe.because we have to drive by the log book and not when our chemistry dictates us. If I am tired I want to be able to sleep like a human being and not think that I have to drive because if I go to sleep it has to be 8 hours of sleep. Everything else counts against. They make laws with the premise that if you are parked, you are at sleep. Like we do not have issues, like payments, children, foreclosures, having enough money for repairs and fuel, or why do I have to sit in this box in the middle of nowhere, when I am perfectly sound and rested. If your are out of hours on Thursday afternoon you will probably get stuck till Monday. Nobody in Washington accounts for the fact that trucker life is dictated by the season, shippers, receivers, brokers, that most businesses are open Monday to Friday, 8 am to 5 pm. I am not even talking about the weather issues. “All of us are in this business want to make for living.” “Money.” If I can not make money I will toss my Log Book and do something else. I need money to keep my equipment compliant, to make my payments and bills. We are all slaves to money and this business nature. The biggest thing they fail to understand is “If I can not make money to keep my truck compliant I will be unsafe.” Who would not want to have truck 100 % safe. What kind of premise is that that somehow, innately, we, the drivers, are prone to mischievous and unsafe driving. The money determines how safe we will be on the road as far as technical soundness of the equipment. These new regulations affect mostly business side of this industry. So who is the biggest cause of drivers being dangerous on the road?. The legislators! I drive, dispatch, repair, and do the book keeping, my equipment is paid off and the yard where I park is mine. Regardless, the truck has 18 wheel and each tire cost at least $500, with installation. How about when tire explodes how much is cost to repair the damage which tire caused with spinning debris. In addition to all new “paralyzing” regulations, that is the reason why most of trucking companies are struggling financially, thus cannot afford decent tires on their trucks! On top it is the frustration because of this blatant intrusion forces me now to spend almost a week longer, per month, in my truck, which I could spend with my family at home. I happen to be Medical Doctor who moved from medicine 5 years ago because I taught I could have more control over my life and comparable wages. I was so wrong! Not because I was not capable but because I feel such unjust pressure coming from people who never drove trucks. How can they understand what are we are going through every day? How does it feel to sit 7 n days in 5′ x 5′ metallic can, come 400 miles away from home and than park and sit for 34 hours knowing you could be home with your family. As a doctor I think that we work in such unhealthy environment because we work under such psychological pressure. I experience pain day in and day out. Either people who are making the rules do not understand or the rules are designed to work against certain type of business, mostly small trucking companies. We, who take loads from East coast to West coast are mostly affected by these new laws. My business and my health are the two things I feel are most affected. The conditions are such that no money is worth frustration that we, behind wheels, are experiencing. I think that this is important to say, I never met a single driver in my drivers career who has not expressed frustration over these ever increasing regulations, totally in contrast with our “drivers way of life.” Than what are the parameters that matter if not opinions of over 10 million of professional drivers who hod CDL..

  • Mind Games

    They want as many as they can get to leave the industry I say let’s all go down and file for disability and just give them what they want. Either way we win….. Think about it all truckers in one day just file for social security the people in power would lose their minds!
    And I don’t mean just file and leave I mean take it to em and if the government fights we fight harder and file a long overdue suit…. Discrimination!!!
    Many would win and thus bust the system giving the rich the worst nightmare they could imagine…. Check Mate.

  • haller

    I have no clue what your point is.

  • haller

    Bring back the Teamster Union.

  • Michael Bechara

    I think that would be a great idea but I don’t see it happening .

  • EF McHenry

    I agree with a lot of what you said! Of course I have my opinion too! Here’s a factoid:
    **EOBRs/ELDs still rely on driver integrity as proposed since falsifying
    line 4 makes line 3 false. Line 3 & 4 both draw from the 70hrs avail at the start of the week. Conserving hrs not spent for work done in line 4(on-duty not driving), just allows more hrs to be spent on line 3 thus contributing to the dreaded ”too much time behind the wheel;” the very thing it is
    being peddled to prevent! Another words:
    ”If a driver cheats on line 4 on a EOBR/ELD, the EOBR/ELD will produce a true account of a false log”
    I could go on about so much more the EOBR/ELD is nothing but a instrument of profit, and a liability shield for corporate trucking as currently proposed! Have a nice day

  • Shelley Scarbrough Hughes

    I see your point of view, and agree! Thanks for pointing out these facts! I appreciate your opinion!
    Hope you have a great day as well.

  • trucktracy

    50 per hour? Where in this country can you rent a truck trailer and driver for 50 an hour?!But just remember the same thing that makes you laugh will make you cry. If this happened you can bet your butt you better not be late, they will be charging us 500 per hour.

  • Dan

    As a dispatcher, I couldn’t agree more with this driver’s perception. The 10 hour break is used for truck repair, loading and unloading, and everything else included in the job when the wheels aren’t turning. The lack of regard for the drivers circadian rhythm is the biggest travesty, the feds are now forcing drivers to drive when fatigued. Shippers and receivers are always the last to comply with rule changes, and they are still acting like they have no clue there is even such a thing as electronic logging. I’ve been left with one alternative. When my driver calls and says he needs to rest, or stop for inclement weather, I reschedule his appointment according to his reported ETA. Then I go to war with the customer, and my company management. I refuse to budge, my final argument is always: “My job is to protect my driver. Without him or her, I have no job. No matter how much equipment we own. Before I will tell him he has to go, I will pack a box, and go find a real job.” So far, I’m still here. But the driver that got rescheduled lost miles, and income. Soon, he won’t be able to afford to do this anymore. And once we’ve driven enough good drivers out of this industry, I won’t be able to afford to buy groceries anymore. And neither will you.

  • governmental queda

    Here Here MindGames! The only way to put an end to sh!t, is just to stop the sh!t. As long as anyone puts up with something, someone will push & take more from you. At what point do I say “No More”?!
    It’s too late when I’m in jail for low tire pressure.

  • FrustratedPatriot888

    In other words…take responsibility for your self, your work habits and anything else that falls within YOUR privy.

  • FrustratedPatriot888

    There are plenty of people (drivers) who spout off on these pages, in truck stops or at the wrong people…but where are they when the speaking out is needed in Washington? Make the phone call to your representatives and if they don’t listen, if they don’t take your call, vote them out of office and put someone in who will!
    Whining in truck stops isn’t going to change a damn thing except make those sitting around you sick of hearing you bitch. Until you take steps to make or effect change…you HAVE no right to complain.

  • DAGR

    Hear…Hear… Well stated. As the regulations get more and more harsh, it should be just as construction workers, auto workers , coal miners etc. You want to put all these rules in place, then you need to pay top dollar. Company drivers .60 cents to start, and O/O 1.80 per mile and Independent starting at 3.50 a mile.

  • jojo

    As long as the corporate trucking companies are allowed to dictate the OTR Co Drivers wages we OO’s have to compete against drivers Making as little as $0.25cpm.
    Paying a driver $625.00 for 168hrs of AT work time is unrealistic with this new way of trucking as prescribed by our govt. and the ATA.
    Lift the new Drivers out of Poverty by tying their wages to the minimum wage standards that are in place.
    $7.25 an hour = $174.00 a day = $1218.00 a week flat.
    The average Truck Drivers annual earnings is about $38,000.00.
    $174.00 X 300 Days = $52,200.00.
    We should be Helping these new Drivers to earn a living wage. EOBR’s are a time clock that a Co.Driver should be paid by.
    If the corporate trucking companies had to raise their rate in order to pay their Drivers you can bet that the overall logistics would tighten up.
    If WE THE PEOPLE were paying for it by the hour I know that We would have SAFETY. Isn’t SAFETY the excuse that is commonly used to justify all this crap that is COSTING Us Money?
    Cheap Freight Relies on Cheap Labor!!!
    Register to VOTE. When the roadways are vacant of trucks for a few days around election day because WE Drivers are exercising our Right To Vote the message would be sent!

  • Tom Flaten

    Wow, what a concept. At $50/hour, we can earn $300/day for not doing anything – including driving!

  • david webster

    Very good plan the fed. gov said the same thing 8 years ago. The reason over half of the truck drivers in Canada are no driving truck is they can make between $18.00 and $25.00 per hour in other jobs and be paid for most of the hours worked often overtime is paid. When Loblaws has a problem with a person on their property who has health issues( or stand for another driver rights and pay) ,they ban the person and the trucking co. Pay over the rd. $21.00 per hour with any thing over 10 hours per day over time and the tractors at $50.00 per hour plus fuel and tolls

  • david webster

    very well said for the last 10 years the customer have not been paying trucking co.(s) for siting time and driver pay is approx. 60% in Canada compared to teachers , firemen as in 1980

  • david webster

    that is $50.00 per hour for man and truck a $21.00 per hour driver cost $25. with other costs and a another $25. to the truck

  • gregbo

    I trained with and drove briefly for the “no more paper logs” criminal enterprise Werner where logging fraud is institutionalised. Drivers are trained at orientation to log line 1(?) when arriving at the shipper and enter the minimum 15 minutes on line 4 when leaving no matter how long they’re there. Apparently Werner drivers enjoy taking long breaks at shippers after 15 minutes of work.
    The Qualcom also automatically logs a 15 minute pretrip when the truck moves after a 10 hour break before putting you on line 3 even though I never saw a Werner driver pretrip a truck or trailer and they do not fill out a DVIR. I’m now leased to a carrier and use paper logs. My logs are about 99% honest compared to 50% with the EOBR at Werner. “nothing but an instrument profit”. Exactly. And I would add an instrument of driver exploitation.

  • gregbo

    I’m an O/O but you are correct the slave labor company drivers are keeping freight rates from rising to a reasonable level. Unfortunately there are a lot of desperate people in this economy willing to walk through the revolving door at the mega carriers until they realise they’ve been had. There are hopefull signs that the scam is reaching a tipping point and some carriers are beginning to realise that they will soon exhaust the supply of victims. And while I’m not a fan of government regulation, there is no logical reason remaining for exempting carriers from the employee costs every other industry in the U.S is required to pay.

  • Jim Rieger

    I agree 100 % on this issue. I am a big proponent of compensate all drivers by the hour for EVERYTHING they do !!!!! Driving, pre and post trip , paperwork, loading , unloading, breakdowns etc.. The overtime needs to be paid at time and one half ( like most everyone else) This would eliminate any incentive to speed, violate hours of service, etc… This would also enable drivers to do a complete pre trip and and catch a five dollar problem before it is a five hundred dollar problem or worse yet becomes a cause of an accident.

  • david webster

    Loblaws. tried to do that to my son. When my son told them what they asked him to do something illegal.They found another reason to ban him and any body else who drives for his co. from going to Loblaws. We need to go after the shippers and rec. and pay drivers fairly.

  • David S. McQueen

    Politicians become millionaires while in office which is why the elected positions are coveted and protected by lies. Sure, the system isn’t perfect but it beats whatever is in second place.

  • David S. McQueen

    Yes, we all want reasonable compensation and there are many good ideas that will replace the “wheels turning” standard used today. However, trucking companies and shippers pass the cost of doing business on to whoever pays the bill and, ultimately, you and I see the price of everything go up.

  • David S. McQueen

    We’ve all been there. Laredo TX receiver made me sit for 4 hours while Mexican trucks arriving after me were unloaded first.

  • TXTraction

    Well, the original article is a bit one-sided, but the points are valid. Detention, even at $50/hr often doesn’t cover the cost of losing the next load, burning extra fuel to catch up, or mistakes due to stress and lack of sleep. The real solutions will only start to be implemented when everyone affected realizes that inefficiency, poor planning, and lack of communication cost real money. Unfortunately, most change comes about due to reacting to situations rather than proactively dealing with them.

  • JP

    This stuff all in the name of “safety” is way out of control. I Have been an owner operator for 28 yrs. I would like to know where the government wants me to park my truck for them? they can have it. its theirs. Iv’e had enough of their abuse and bull shit in the name of safety.

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  • William Henry Bowen

    Same situation just a few days ago on the Ohio Turnpike during blizzard/whiteout conditions. 100s of vehicles (trucks & cars) damaged/destroyed, 3 dead, many more injured and an OHP Officer in the hospital in Toledo in critical condition.

  • William Henry Bowen

    Susan, what you are saying makes 100% sense – let them that squander the driver’s “on time” pay the bill. Sadly, because it does make so much sense, I’ll bet it will NOT be done.

  • Raveman

    I had a talk with my congressman’s office. It seems they don’t know much about what is going on here. For my part, I am copying this article along with the comments, along with other comments from other articles regarding the implementation of electronic logs. Although I am against the idea from the outset, if the detention problem were completely eliminated, I could comply, HOWEVER, the 14 hour rule would also need to be eliminated as no machine can tell me when I am tired, nor can it find me a parking space with the amenities needed at the time. As a fletbedder there I times when I do get sweaty and dirty, and I’m getting a shower when I need one regardless of what any machine says I can and can not do. I suggest that everyone also get this in front of your legislators. Flood them with it, and stay at it. Keep in contact with them on a weekly basis. Remember, this is supposed to be a free county. But lately it seems that the land of the free no longer exists as the government is taking control of everything which eliminates freedom, and as far as the home of the brave, that does not only apply to the military, it also applies to civilians. We all need to be brave enough to stand up to this, but sadly most will do nothing but complain. I reiterate, contact your legislators, but with practical suggestions on how to solve this ongoing problem, without the impractical nonsense that so many posts here consist of. Be respectful in all of your communications. We need everyones help, especially from the million milers who know this industry inside and out. Band together in peaceful unity and do something and perhaps we can get this done.

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