Owner-ops react to market challenges: Lightning round from the final Waupun Truck-N-Show

Todd Dills: There's no doubt it was a bittersweet weekend last week in Waupun, Wisconsin, for showgoers at what could well be the last edition of the decades running Waupun trucking show, where Overdrive news editor Matt Cole was on hand talking to many among the owner-operators, and other truckers in attendance. One such was Dane Wisniewski, owner of three truck small fleet HDR LLC, headquartered there in the state. Owner Wisniewski recalled fondly his time attending the show during every single one of his years in business, from the time he started with just one truck.

Dane Wisniewski: We have been coming here for the last six years straight. The first year that I built this truck, we brought it down here and we took. I don't even remember what they are. I'm not even gonna say what trophies they were. But we took first place in three different categories for it in the first year. And, you know, and it was. I think it was a metal flake in the orange paint that everybody's eyeballs got big, you know? And then all of a sudden, like, the next year, I started seeing metal flake in every truck. It was like, hey, did they see that? Or is it just. It just caught on, you know? But we've been here every year for the last six years, whether we had stuff going on in the weekend. I think two years ago we had a wedding, and I couldn't even make it. We still came down here, made it chill for one day, and then we went home that night, 02:00 in the morning, and then we were going to the wedding the next day. the thing is, there's kind of sad because there's a lot of guys that enjoy coming to this show. This is one show that we will never miss, and I hope that somebody maybe takes it over. so if anybody's watching this and sees it, more props to you. I hope you do. our younger generation of guys that, you know, there's a lot of people here that are running this, that are in their sixties and seventies since this has started or damn near closed, you know, the younger generation, such as I, that's coming through the ranks, needs to stay, step up outside of us and maybe take on that initiative, to help out, too. Otherwise, this stuff is going to die, you know? I know it's hard, but we got to step it up.

Todd Dills: I'm Todd Dills, your host for this edition of the Overdrive Radio podcast that will take even more of the temperature among owners of the Waupun show. Not only is it released to the kind of wistfulness, but the challenge to the next generation that you heard there from owner-operator Wisniewski, given August 22, is coming fast, and we're hosting that day an online session geared toward exchanging ideas around building trucking business to weather the inevitable ups and downs of the business cycles. Given that Cole asked five owners, you'll hear from today some of the same basic questions. What have they done in response to the current long ongoing down markets?

Brian Bucenell: That's really your biggest cost. That's really, like the one thing you can really factor or, will change the easiest and the fastest is how much fuel you're burning. So kind of pay attention to that a little bit better.

Todd Dills: Is there any hope that this year's presidential election's conclusion might deliver certainty to the spenders out there such that freight might improve significantly in the years to come?

Dane Wisniewski: It always has a bearing on things. There's no way around that, because there's change, and people freak out when there's change, whether it's good or bad, they don't like change, you know?

Todd Dills: Or in other words, is there a chance the prognosticatorss foreseeing growth in 2025 rather than any kind of full blown economic recession? Is there any chance they could be right delivering freight market improvements?

Nate Stone: I hope so.

Todd Dills: Settle in for a lightning round on the subject of micro and macro trucking economics, as it were, from the point of view of an ag heavy crowd at the Waupun show, we hear along the way from Brett Buske, owner-operator Brian Bucenell, father and son small fleet Dan and Daniel Linn, more from Dane Wisniewski.

And finally, one owner-operator Nate Stone, who shares at least one trait in common with our August 22 set, panelist owner-operator Ilya Denisenko, in that he started his owner-operator business at perhaps the most opportune of inopportune times, if that makes sense, right at the bottom of the market. It's kind of like that old Frank Sinatra song about New York City. If you can make it there at the bottom, profits show for it. Well, you might be able to make it anywhere. Keep tuned.

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Brett Buske: First up, Brett Buske, Buske Trucking LLC.

Todd Dills: Brett Buske, pulling in a custom 379 that's part of he and his father's seven truck fleet. Noted business for them had been good of late, though not without its challenges.

Brett Buske: We do a lot of work with farmers, so, you know, there's, there's always stuff to be hauled on the farms, and we do a little bit of municipal stuff, too, so that we deal with that, too. Oh, yeah, always. we've seen stuff go up and down, but you're gonna have that, you know, fuel price is a killer, too. But, some of the stuff we do, you know, is fuel, included. So that helps. But a lot of it's nothing, so. But it is what it is. Stuff's got to keep moving. Can't shut it down. Just, you know, just kind of ride it out and see where it goes. Can't, can't really change it that much. It is what it is. But, you know, you know, you run a little bit older trucks, you know, they'll, you know, you got an extra cost here and there. So we tried to get, you know, a newer truck or two and better fuel mileage. You know, that helps. Fuel mileage helps a little bit more aerodynamic, but other than that, can't really change it. so we have, we have seven total. We got 5379s, with c 15s in them. And then we have a brand new w 990 with x 15. And then we got a cat or a Mac with an MP eight with m drive in it. So that one pulls a ton tanker most of the time.

Todd Dills: The fuel mileage theme you'll hear again, that's certainly biggest cost area that can be impacted in all sorts of ways by owner-operators. You'll hear it from the next voice up for this lightning round. A familiar one for me, anyway. I met owner-operator Brian Bucenell during the 2017 ELD mandate protests in Washington, DC.

Brian Bucenell: I've been driving for, I think, 15 years total now, 15 or 16 somewhere in there.

Todd Dills: Bucenell has been an owner-operator for about half of that time, pulling into 2002 Peterbilt 379. And today leased to Drake Hauling.

Brian Bucenell: I'm not good with bosses, not good with rules, so it was easier to make my own rules. And if I break my own rules, I got nobody to blame but myself. So it just worked out better.

Todd Dills: Why he became an owner-operator to start with, as it were. As with Brett Buske, Bucenell's been somewhat insulated on the revenue side of the profit equation for the challenges of the last couple of years. Given he's pulling hopper freight, supporting ag operations, costs remain his principal concern and means to backstop profit. And he's been doing what he can to keep them in control.

Brian Bucenell: We've got good customers, so we've been lucky. it's been really rough on a lot of people. Really, really rough on a lot of people lately. Man, my heart goes out to a lot of them. It's, it's, it's. I'm very lucky with where, what, where I'm at and what I've been doing. So I thank God for that every day, man. But we're a little more a little more protected from, from the economy, the ups and downs of the economy. And that's. So that's where we kind of lucked out on. But It's. Yeah, it's just rough, man. It's just rough. Fuel prices, insurance rates, everything. It's just rough all the way around. Yeah, we slowed down. Slowed down a lot. Yeah, we don't drive as fast anymore because, you know, burn too much fuel. So, yeah, it's try to do what you can. Saving fuel.

That's, that's really your biggest cost. That's really like one thing you can, you can really factor, you know, or will change. The easiest and the fastest is how much fuel you're burning. So kind of pay attention to that a little bit better. But that's really about it. That's all you really can change.

Todd Dills: Next up, Dan Linn and his son Daniel are showing a brand new Western Star 2025 model. In fact, waupun with their Linn Acres farms operation out of Bucyrus, Ohio.

Dan Linn: We do dry bulk, egg and feed grade, food grade products. Hopper bottom. we bring products out as far, south Florida, do a lot out of south Georgia up to Ohio. And we do a dedicated run from Ohio to Indiana for a local feed, farm. And that's pretty much we're farm background. We farm too. And I do trucking. This is the truck. I just got here last spring. It's the second Western Star we’ve owned. Before that, I owned, quite a few Peterbilts. Business is steady, but the high cost like everything, tires and food on the road and all that all is playing into it. What we used to eat is like everybody else has almost doubled. Almost. Not quite, but our rates have seemed to hold a little more stable maybe than the rest of the market. but the loads are thinner by all means. I mean, sites that we would use on the computer, like bulk loads. I mean there's just not as many loads posted. But lucky for us, I have quite a few direct customers. Probably 90% of my business is my own direct customers. I've been with one customer, an elevator, for over 20 years and I've really enjoyed a really good reputation and rapport with them. If we end up in a spot, you know, we're taking loads, one of our regular loads somewhere our load isn't ready. we do, we mainly, but we get a lot of emails direct from brokers too and things like that. But we use buffaloes is what we use mainly. We're really happy with it. They have a lot of news on there too and that really helps. You don't have to hunt everywhere for news. It's all right there when you open up your homepage.

Todd Dills: Dan Linn's talking there about the bulkloads.com specialized board. They are cofounded by Jared Flinn. Regular listeners might remember Flinn's Semi Sam series of children's books he authored, which we talked to him about here on the podcast in late 2022.

Matt Cole then asked Linn what, if anything, the Linns had adjusted to cope with higher costs and as Linn noted, with fewer available loads. In essence, Linn's trying to truck smarter, not harder.

Dan Linn: We just do things a little smarter. We don't head out on load unless I know definitely where what we're doing. Like the old days, you could kind of just head somewhere and you'd find something in between. But make sure a plan. And we don't take every, I don't take every load that comes up. I mean there's some loads I wouldn't mind doing. But there, you know, there's one particular lane that I used to do 15-20 years ago, 15 maybe it was at $900, out and back trip, 200-some mile. The rate now is more like 6-700. And I just won't even touch it. I mean it comes up. But I say, you know, if I did that years ago for $900, what am I going to do it today for? And it's less than a 200 miles run one way. So to me that's, those are round-trip loads. You know, they want a specific time. You can't have a load at the other end waiting all it like that. And, anything like that to me is, is based on a round trip rate.

Todd Dills: Wisconsin headquartered HDR small fleet, and HDL brokerage owner Dane Wisniewski showed a 2007 Kenworth W900L at Waupun and laid out for Matt Cole the basics of the business.

Dane Wisniewski: We're based out of Mosiny, Wisconsin. started out as a cop, actually, and worked as a cop in a couple small town apartments, and a good friend of mine, Chad Barry, that lives down the road from my parents, kind of helped us through. I had a lot of questions and getting him started, and we bought a truck and went trucking, and it's been lights out. We've been nonstop. Grow, grow, grow. And we do a lot of open deck flatbed stuff, from RGN to, step deck to flatbed work, so it's pretty busy. And this is our maiden voyage truck that started it all. We started in 2016. started with one truck. We're up to three now. Owner-ops, up and down. Every once in a while, we get one coming on with us, and two years ago, we started a brokerage as well, which is HDL. Heather Dane Logistics, and HDR, the acronym is Heather Dane Rigs. But it was a lot of our customers that, you know, they had a lot of issues with other trucking companies not being able to meet the demand, or they say one thing and they can't. They can't, you know, give them what they tell them. so we ran into that a lot. and we outgrew our company tenfold. We just could not keep up. So we started a brokerage to help them. So I know so many different owner ops in our industry that are around in the last how many years that I'd rather have them haul for us and move the equipment. And what comes down to is a lot of companies, they don't want to sign new companies on because it is a hassle. So if we're already in the door moving their stuff, and I can hire Joe Schmoe to come help us, boom, they're in the door, and they can help us run, you know, and we're honest about it. Right? You know, I always tell our guys, you come haul for us, I take our 10%. It's up front. You want me to prove it? I don't care. I'll show it. I'll put it in your face. That's. That's what we do. We're not here to ever screw anybody over. I make a couple dollars off it, and a truck makes what it needs to make. and that's, it's worked a lot. we've grown our brokerage tenfold. Last year, her first year, moving to brokerage stuff, she, she moved over a million dollars of inventory in her first year with all direct customers. This year, we're on par for overdose, 2 million. So, I mean, it's a lot, it's a lot. and I'm juggling a lot of it. being in the truck, running drivers down the road, trying to help her with brokerage, with quoting and doing things like that. And now we're moving into the industry of taking on projects to working on trucks for people, whether we're painting, doing custom work, or insurance work for people. So it's, there's a lot going on, a lot of moving process, and it's, in today's economy, we kind of got to be a, well rounded company, because sometimes trucking is just not that busy. We do load boards vary depending on the year. Spring, summer, fall, all direct customers. I'd say probably 75% to 80% of our loads are all direct customers. we run out and about. If I get into areas that I can't find freight, I'll look on the load boards. We use them, but if it's not paying what we're not paying, or what we need to break even or move it down the road, will that head home? Or I'll call our niche of customers or guys that I know, and hey, you have somebody's contact out here, you know, and we work together. That's what the industry needs to start doing a little bit more. I think, especially with this economy, you know, can't be, can't be out for your own. You got to work together to get somewhere.

Todd Dills: And what about this freight economy? Cole asked. The election coming up. Wisniewski saw the likelihood of change fairly high in the aftermath, as yet unlikely to move fast.

Dane Wisniewski: It always has a bearing on things. There's no way around that, because there's change, and people freak out when there's change, whether it's good or bad, they don't like change, you know. so whether people are buying stuff and things are moving and they're not buying stuff and things aren't moving, there's no way around it. So it's going to change. I don't think it's going to happen overnight with an election being, you know, some people praise this person and that person. I'm not pro anything. I'm pro common sense. You know, what makes sense and what helps us in an industry. I don't think the election being determined in November and in December, we're gonna flip a light switch, and everything's gonna be perfect and great, and everybody's making money and rolling it. I don't see that happening. It's gonna be a year, maybe two, before it starts coming back. But when I really look back into the books, when I first started, 12, 13, 14, honestly, right now, with the freight the way it is, I can look back and scratch my head and go, how were we moving it for that back then? And it's paying more now, and everybody's complaining about it. I think everybody's so used to the overinflated prices that they expect that. like, right now, we have a lot of, we have an opening in one of our 660s that's opening for a driver. And I get a lot of people, you know, looking for a job, and we take a lot of phone calls, applicants, and whatnot. And what I've found to see in this industry is, in the last three, four years, the people that have gotten into it, they think that a company driver wanting to be home every weekend is going to make $125,000. And it's not realistic. but that's when they came into it. That's all they know. They don't know what the actual market really is for truck driving. and it's good for them, but it's not good for them because they're dealing with unrealistic expectations. so it's going to be hard for, as company guys coming into a different company or looking for more. I tell anybody that's looking like that, don't out step your bounds of what you're making, because what you make this year isn't a promise next year unless you're on a salary. and that's just trucking in a nutshell.

Todd Dills: As far as shifts in the HDR business itself to adapt to the revenue cost squeeze, Dane Wisniewski admitted to being stumped in some ways, if you will.

Dane Wisniewski: Well, I wish I actually had an actual answer for it. I don't know. That's the word I would say. I don't know. because when I look at the books and when I try moving numbers around, I'm not gonna lie. And I can tell you there's a lot of guys that are in the same boat here. I'm not the only one, but there are weeks where I'm sitting there scratching my head going, man, somebody's got to turn a light switch on here because we're gonna go broke. You know, that's just truck driving. But it has been excessive the last few years. and breakdowns. Yeah, it's been crazy. a lot of it comes down to luck sometimes, and I don't care. You can make your own luck, but you have to have luck in a nutshell, because, this specific truck started out with Isx, cummins, and we've gone through three motors in three years. I am now on my fourth motor in this truck. And we went to a cat just because, it's something that, I don't know, I never was around them, but everybody has longevity on them, so we're trying something different. it can cause a lot of stress and marital things and stuff like that when you're talking about money, because it's not easy, you know, there's a lot of times I didn't pay myself or my wife for a long time because we just had to make those work. And people don't realize that. They see all the flashy trucks and like, wow, it must be nice. Well, yeah, maybe the bank owns about three quarters of that. If not, you know, more, you know, it's just the way it goes. but we, we try to be open and up front like that, you know, and that's the hardships are always going to be there, whether you're making all kinds of money or you're at the bottom spectrum and one truck, one on it. you just got to weather the storm and keep rolling with it.

Todd Dills: Finally, Matt Cole spoke to Nate Stone, owner-operator out of northern Illinois and trucking in a 2005 Kenworth W9 he was showing at Waupun. He's relatively new to truck ownership and leased to Jason Yeager's trucking business, hauling lumber and other commodities with a Conestoga. He's just in his second year of truck ownership and getting his bearings with respect to cost management. It's been interesting, to say the least, in this freight economy.

Nate Stone: A year ago yesterday, so it's been seven years now, I started on a farm. I got my CDL through them, and then, my sister was a dispatcher for a crane company. So then I got in with them, and then I always wanted to haul big stuff. So then they trained me on hauling big, cranes. So I hauled cranes for five years and kind of got tired of the corporate life. I was like, I think I could do this on my own. So gave her a shot. So it's my second year now, and it's going okay. I can't complain. So I. At the time, I didn't have family or kids, so I just, I was like, I need to make money. And just, I ran, you know, I didn't turn down anything. I went wherever, you know? He's like, hey, you want to go here? I'm like, I'll try anything once, you know? But he's like, when I leased down with Jason, he's like, I wish you would have started, like, last year, two years ago, when Trump was in office. And he's like, we made a kill. And he's like, we're doing all right. He's like, just, you know, just work your ass off and you'll be all right. So, I mean, yeah, that's why I was concerned with buying this truck. You know, it's not cheap by any means, but I've been doing all right. Now that, I'm on my own, like, you know, being a company driver, you don't care about equipment. But, like, now that it's mine, like, got to try and baby it a little bit. And it's like with pulling a Conestoga, because I was. Gave me the option of pulling a flat, but, or a Conestoga, I'm m like, I'm fat, lazy. I'll take the Conestoga life, you know, but they're like, you know, you're not going to get good fuel mileage. I'm like, that's fine. it beats throwing tarps in the winter, in the rain. So that's the one thing that irritated me. Running down south, you get rained on, then you come up in the north and your tarps freeze. I'm like, come on. So it's bone go? Pretty much. So I can't complain. We do pretty much all lumber. It, kind of avoids, like, coils and stuff like that, but we do a lot of lumber. And then, like, steel, like, plate steel, flat plate steel, and stuff like that. But pretty much our dedicated stuff out of Wisconsin goes anywhere and then just kind of brings something off. Load board coming back, so it works out.

Todd Dills: Stone's hopeful that with the election decided, particularly if it sends the Republican back to the White House, freight will improve. But he's not betting his truck on that, as it were.

Nate Stone: I keep hearing it's going to get worse,. I don't think it can get any worse, but I know guys. Like, for instance, I ran out to Maine, and there was a load from Boston going back to Minneapolis and we tried getting it for a couple thousand and Jason called the broker and the brokers like laughed at him and hung up. And Jason saw it on the load board for $800 for a 1200 miles run. I'm like, come on, I don't get it. And you know, and that's the other thing. Like people are complaining about not making payments on anything. It's like freight's not paying anything. You know, you guys keep taking cheap freight, so it's fun.

Todd Dills: Matt Cole then referenced some of the conventional wisdom among the freight economy analysts who project certainty delivered with a clear election winner later this year. Whoever wins might settle the moods of the spenders all around the US and deliver at least some measure of improving freight rates, maybe even cost conditions for truckers in the new year of 2025. Did Nate Stone put a lot of stock in that point of view? Cole asked. Stone wasn't quite 100% about how he felt about it, other than to say that he could hope at least they were right in some way.

Nate Stone: I hope so. it'd be nice to, I mean, that's what it does. It goes up and down. So hopefully we're at the bottom and hopefully she'll start going up soon and.

Todd Dills: We can hope right along with him, though we've been talking about bumping along the bottom, as it were, of the freight markets for more than a year now. Whatever the case, join us this coming Thursday for the live event with owner-operator coach and Overdrive contributor Gary Buchs, owner-operator Ilya Denisenko and small fleet owner and past small fleet champ Jason Cowan on building business for the down business cycles in trucking. Hope to see you there. Find a link to register for the event in the show notes or in the post that houses this edition of Overdrive Radio. Here's a big thanks for listening wherever you get your podcasts. Overdrive Radio is on Spotify and Soundcloud, Apple Podcasts and YouTube, Overdrive's Facebook page, and any listening platform, really. You can leave us a review there if you're enjoying these. A big thanks in advance for that.