We’ve got a bit of a special edition of Overdrive Radio for you this week. There’s a guest host who’s going to walk us through a conversation with Chace Barber, cofounder of Edison Motors. If Barber's name sounds familiar, you may have read Overdrive Executive Editor Alex Lockie’s reporting of some of what Barber’s been doing with a diesel-electric concept that’s similar to the way locomotives work. The system features an on-board diesel generator serving only to charge a lithium ion battery powering an electric motor capable of monster loads of both horsepower and torque.
In the case of Barber and company's prototypes, that's all inside beautiful and beautifully tough old 1960s Kenworths of the type so many owner-operators and others revere for their styling, among other attributes.
[Related: Trucking's toughest niche? Inside log hauling, which could be on the brink of a powertrain revolution]
Log hauler, writer, and podcaster Gord Magill recently drew out more of Chace Barber’s company’s origin story and plenty about just where his electric-drive trucks stand to be best applied in the "Voice of GO(r)D" podcast.
Gord’s roots, like Barber’s, are in Canada, though Magill now calls the United States home, as our own "Long Haul Paul" Marhoefer wrote in his Faces of the Road series talk with Magill: As noted, Barber’s Edison Motors has been making a name for itself by taking advantage of big strides in battery technology to repurpose something of an old general concept for a new application, with big potential. And it’s not exactly a hybrid diesel-electric in the manner of much of the hybrid technology in cars today, as Barber told Magill. Over-the-road trucking benefits are decidedly less than more intense applications like log hauling. Yet OTR could benefit in the form of fuel savings to the tune of a potential 5-10 percent or more.
There’ are some perhaps non-obvious benefits, too -- think things that might fall into the "weird government stuff" classification Magill mentions in the podcast..(Electric-drive trucks ELD/road tax-exempt?) It's all spelled out in the podcast. Take a listen:
Find the full two-hour conversation in the Voice of GO(r)D podcast via this link to Spotify, here on Stitcher, and here on Apple Podcasts, among other major podcast platforms. Magill's writing, featured elsewhere in outlets like Newsweek, among many others, is also accessible via his Substack page at this link.
[Related: Faces of the Road: Log hauler and writer Gord Magill, student of the ice roads]
Todd Dills: Hey, everybody. We've got a bit of a special edition of Overdrive Radio for you this week. There's a guest host of sorts who's going to walk us through a conversation with Chace Barber, co-founder of Edison Motors. If his name sounds familiar, you may have read Overdrive Executive Editor Alex Lockie's reporting on some of what Barber's been doing with a diesel-electric concept that's similar to the way locomotives work. With an onboard diesel engine serving only to charge, in this case, a lithium-ion battery with huge horsepower and torque capability to power, in the case of his prototype, a beautiful and beautifully tough 1969 Kenworth he calls simply, Old Blue. Log hauler, writer, and podcaster, Gord Magill, recently drew out more of Chace Barber's company's origin story, and plenty about just where his electric drive trucks stand to be best applied. Here's Gord Magill intro-ing his own podcast.
Gord Magill: Sometimes when you're driving down the road all by yourself, you begin to hear a voice that tells you, "You need to look around, pay attention. Maybe something isn't quite right." That voice is me. It's the Voice of Gord.
Todd Dills: It's the Voice of Go(r)d podcast. If you're searching around for the podcast on most of the major platforms for listening out there, that's G-O-R-D with the R in parentheses, as it were. I'm Todd Dills, your host as usual for this special edition featuring these two fine gentlemen. Gord's roots, like Chace Barber's, are in Canada, though Magill now calls the United States home. As noted, Barber's Edison Motors has been making a name for itself by taking advantage of big strides in battery technology to repurpose something of an old, general concept for new purposes with big potential and a variety of applications. It's not exactly a hybrid diesel electric in the manner of much of the hybrid technology in cars today though, as he told Magill.
Gord Magill: Basically, your trucks are a big Toyota Prius in a manner of speaking.
Chace Barber: Technically, it's a little bit different than a hybrid, for legal purposes. Hybrids are not road tax exempt, and hybrids need to run their motor when the vehicle is moving. They need to run their motor. The motor needs to work with the batteries. The difference with the diesel electric is it can run without the generator. If you took that generator out of the truck, it would make no difference in performance of the vehicle whatsoever. It is 100% able to operate completely off electric. It is just electric that carries around its own electrical power station. It's not a hybrid, it's electric with its own power station on board.
Todd Dills: Over the road trucking benefits are not insubstantial in the form of fuel savings of, say, a potential 5 to 10 or more percent, but in various vocational and/or heavy haul applications, the savings potential is generally much greater. There are some, perhaps, non-obvious benefits, too. Here's Magill with a particular question for Barber.
Gord Magill: Edison Motors, your new company that you're building trucks with, are you guys running into weird government stuff yet?
Chace Barber: Yeah, absolutely. There are weird government things. We fall into a lot of gray zones, but they benefit us, so I'm not going to go into them before the government figures out that the gray zones benefit us. There are certain things like, "You need to run e-logs if you have an ECM of a truck that's made not prior to 1999." Electric trucks don't have an ECM. The way they got around that is right now, electric trucks don't really require the e-log because their battery limits them. We put a diesel generator in there to recharge the batteries while the electric truck is moving. Now, that is an auxiliary power unit, there's no rule that says your auxiliary generator needs to have an ECM hooked up to an e-log.
There all right's also weird rules that because it's electric, it's obviously road tax exempt, electric vehicles don't pay road tax. It's classified as an auxiliary power unit, no different than if it was a generator making power sitting at a power station, and generators are allowed to run dyed diesel. That's one of those weird ones that I'm not sure if they find out about. Any truck driver listening, shut up about that.
Todd Dills: On the other side of a break, we'll jump into more from Barber and Magill on the recent edition of Magill's Voice of Go(r)d podcast. A big thanks to Magill for allowing us to highlight it. Stay tuned.
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Todd Dills: That's H-O-W-E-S, howesproducts.com. Here's Barber starting his story of evolution through trucking, to economics and back, onto power generation, and finally, to the 1960s Kenworth diesel electric prototype.
Chace Barber: After high school, I started driving a truck. I started out on a little single axle snow plow and then, we moved over. I got my full Class 1 as soon as I turned 19. I knew I was going to be a truck driver, so as soon as I was old enough, I hopped in a truck, got my Class 1, and started hauling freight, started hauling logs. I loved it, but I decided I wanted to do long haul, so I drove all across Canada.
Gord Magill: Who did you work for when you were doing the cross Canada stuff?
Chace Barber: Valley Roadways out of Kamloops. Landtran took it over is when I left. I got to actually go up there and do one season, the Yellowknife run. I got to do one load up into [inaudible 00:07:06], but between the freight and getting back into logs, I went to university. I made that choice.
Yeah, I saved up a bunch of money and the parents were pushing me like, "Go to university. Try that out." And I thought, okay, I can't see doing the long haul thing forever. Why don't I give it a try? I'm young, in my 20s. There're single girls at university. That sounds like a good time. I could take six, eight months off of work and go chase some girls, but no, went to school and I immediately realized in school that by year two I still had a huge passion for trucking. I went back, drove truck in the summer. Made good money. Went back, set up an elaborate system. The scheme in the university... Well, went back and went back to trucking in the second year and saved up enough money that I did really well in my GPA that I got into a program where it was a work study program for the United Kingdom. So I took advantage of that and my third year, flew over to the UK, got my HGV [inaudible 00:08:15] and so that I could drive trucks over in the UK and England for a while.
Chace Barber: I came back, drove truck for a year because I was broke after going spending all my money in university in England and having a good time.
Gord Magill: So what school did you go to in Canada and what were you studying?
Chace Barber: Thompson River University and I took economics. I liked knowing more about how businesses work and the whole finance thing on it. I wanted to be a little bit more knowledgeable on the whole business aspect of trucking.
Gord Magill: You Actually got trucking in the UK?
Chace Barber: Yeah, I got a little trucking in over there. It wasn't a ton, but I got a little.
Gord Magill: Did you just stay on the island or did you go to Europe as well?
Chace Barber: Oh, yeah, yeah. I drove all over mainland. Honestly, they have trucking really set up well over there compared to Canada.
Gord Magill: In what way?
Chace Barber: Their rest areas are every 20 kilometers. You're all paid by the hour. I really like that all Europe, they mandated that you need to be paid by the hour. They said it was for safety and I completely agree with it seeing the attitude in truck drivers that are paid by the mile or paid by the load compared to truck drivers that are paid by the hour. You hit construction, they slow down for the construction. They have no problem. They're paid hourly. They get a long wait time at a shipper, well, no worry. They're paid hourly. You cannot compensate somebody for driving faster or being more aggressive. You have to pay them for all of their work time that they do over there. They have lower accident rates per mile and it's a lot more stress free. When they did the e-logs in the US, they found that accidents didn't go down.
Gord Magill: No, they went up. They did the opposite.
Chace Barber: Yep, because people were trying... They had to rush to make it so driving faster, you had to make as many miles as possible in that timeframe and if you wanted to make your money or you get any delay, you got to make up the time. Well, you hit bad weather, you got to push through it. I think if the US and Canada really cared about safety, they do what Europe does. You get paid hourly, they still have tachograph the graph, which is like our e-log, but get paid hourly. From as soon as your log starts to as soon as your log finishes, you get paid hourly for all the time and it doesn't matter. You hit bad weather and you have to slow down to be safe, you slow down. You're still getting paid. Right now, if you hit a snowstorm and you back out of the throttle and you're like, "Well, I don't want to do 110 kilometers an hour in this snowstorm. I'm going to slow down to 80," you get paid less for being safe.
Right now, you're incentivizing people to go faster to beat the e-log. You're incentivizing faster driving, more rushed, pushing it, pushing through the storm as fast as you can because your log book's going to run out and that makes no sense. I think the problem is that you get a few good companies. They'll pay by the hour. They realize the increased safety, but then those companies right now in a free market, if you study economics, have to compete against the companies that can pay by the mile that don't pay their drivers any extra. It needs to be mandated by the government that when e-logs came in, you need to pay hourly. I normally hate saying government mandates, but if they're going to mandate that we have e-logs and mandate how many hours to work, they should mandate that we get paid by those hours because then that stops cut rate companies from coming in, hiring a temporary foreign worker, giving them 20 cents a mile and then is putting them in a truck. You're like, "Oh, by the way it's not paid load time, not paid anything." The good companies have a hard time competing.
Gord Magill: What's the genesis of Edison Motors? You go to school. Did you finish? Did you get your degree in economics?
Chace Barber: (A) I did. I did and I graduated with a 4.0.
Gord Magill: Wow. Good for you.
Chace Barber: Not to really brag here, but it sets a context of why I got so angry and went back into trucking.
Gord Magill: The very modest Canadian truck driver right here, yeah.
Chace Barber: Oh, yeah. I got a 4.0. Straight A's across the board in four years of university. Never gotten lower than an A and I got second place in the Bank of Canada Economic Forecasting Challenge for my recommendations on quantitative easing. After all that, four years of university, I got offered a job at the Bank of Canada for that second place. The starting salary was $45,000 a year. I went moving drilling rigs one summer of university, and I made over $50,000 moving drilling rigs in the summer as a truck driver in four months. So in four months as a truck driver, I could make more than I could as an entire year living in Ottawa with a four-year university degree and a straight (A) average. I said this is stupid. This whole thing was a scam. Four years of work and I'm going to make less money than I did just working in the summer. I would literally be better off moving drilling rigs and then not working the next eight months of the year.
Gord Magill: Yeah. You're angry. You're like the bankers want to give me this not good enough salary, so you're like I'm going to go back log trucking?
Chace Barber: Yeah. I met my good friend. We became business partners in our fourth year of university and I said, "Okay. Eric, I got an idea here. We're going to buy a truck. Or, we went to business school, we'll buy a truck and we'll be trucking businessmen." We took the last of our student loans. Between us, I think we had $10,000 and we bought a 1969 Kenworth five-axle long logger that'd been sitting in a guy's field for 15 years. Our last semester of university, we spent all our days and the afternoons and weekends like restoring and fixing up this old truck, changing the electrical, the airlines, getting the whole thing rebuilt, repainted. We put this old truck on the road. Sent that truck off to work and did logs at the very start and then we got a contract through one of Eric's buddies for a mine that was up in the Yukon.
We head north in this old 1960s truck hauling ore at a Wolverine mine up in the Yukon. People thought we were a little crazy though at that point when we were running up in the Yukon in a truck from the 60s, 40 below, barely has a heater, we took that money we made and we bought a newer truck and had that second truck going. Then we bought another truck. Then the mine closed down and we got stiffed on the last few months of payment. They stiffed us on $80,000. We just bought another truck. I went down to Grand Prairie and went back into the oil patch doing some oil bedding. Then we got another winch tractor after a little while, but we got the opportunity to start doing generators and hauling some equipment that way. Then we were able to start installing them.
We started looking and we're like, "Well, where's the money in this?" We can haul it, but the guys making the money are the main contractors that they crane it off. They hire a crane, they place a generator down, they get people out there. I'm like okay, these are guys are the ones that are making the real big bank here. Eric had always been... And me, we're always a nerd about solar and these things and Eric was sitting there and I'll give it to him, that's my business partner. He came up with this way of making a hybrid system. He started looking at lithium batteries and he started thinking. We started doing the math and you take a diesel generator that you put in a large battery bank and you let that battery take the peak load demand. You put in a bunch of solar, the solar maintains it in the daytime.
We got our first break at a project that was way up near Fort Nelson for this tiny little First Nations community. We begged and pleaded like, "Can we do the install? Can we do a project?" What they did is this one tiny First Nations, they had a 90 kilowatt hour generator. We went up, we resized the system to a 35, so down from 90 to 35 because when we looked at their power usage, they had a huge peak load demand at five o'clock. Everybody would get home from work, turn on all the appliances and it would take a lot of power for two, three hours and then it would drop right back down to nothing. But they had to put in a 90 kilowatt generator to meet that peak load, but that means that they were always running 90 kilowatt hour, a much larger size motor.
Gord Magill: Right. You're wasting a lot of fuel doing that.
Chace Barber: The battery actually took the peak load demand and then once we put the battery in, we realized we could put solar and the solar in the daytime would actually recharge the battery because everybody's out at work. Nobody's home in the daytime, there's very little power usage. The daylight energy can just recharge the batteries. That battery gave the peak load demand, then the generator wouldn't fire up until nighttime. We billed about $140,000 to go do that project. I think they saved $85,000 in fuel the first year alone. It was a year and a half payback and that covered the cost of the solar, the battery, the new generator just on the fuel savings that they would've spent anyways.
We started doing solar and I started getting more and more frustrated with some of the trucks. I bought this one truck and it was only two-years-old, but it spent more time at the dealership than it did on the road with fault codes, and emissions, and sensors and just electrical gremlin. We made a decision then, and it was made in part due to a mechanic we had who we fired. The gist of the story, we fired a mechanic because he was selling cocaine at work.
Todd Dills: Sort of a long story short, when that gentleman got out of jail after about a week, the former mechanic came back, used the key he still had to one of the company's trucks then to smash up that into more trucks. What followed was a bit of ingenuity born of what else? Necessity on the part of the team at the company.
Chace Barber: I got lucky, Old Blue, that 1969 was parked at the house. Two, three years later, what he did ended up being a blessing for us, everything said and done.
Gord Magill: Okay, so what was the blessing in? In the wake of this gentleman's low point in his life... We live in a civilization which is informed by Christianity and the idea that you can forgive and move forward and that's great. He causes all this trouble for you. How did that end up working out well?
Chace Barber: We started doing these energy projects and when this happened, we decided to have a look. Let's take a step back and let's reevaluate where we want this business to go. We got an insurance payout. Do we go rebuy the trucks? Get another couple trucks running again, or do we go into more of the construction side? We had that '69 Kenworth that was still a reliable hauler. I'm like well, we can haul all the stuff we do. We're a new company in the energy space. We're not getting a ton of work, but the work we're getting is way more profitable than the trucking. One job every three months is the profit from the trucking. Okay, let's go do that.
We moved back to where I was originally from, back to Merritt, BC. We went back and we just basically kept Old Blue, put the money into developing the products, getting some patents and then we became suppliers to Finning and Caterpillar. We really went hard into it and we managed to become the suppliers for Finning Cat. All of Finning's solar hybrid projects in Western Canada, we do all their solar. That ended up going relatively well. We ended up getting another truck again because it expanded and grew.
Gord Magill: For people who don't know, anybody who's listening at home, Finning is one of these... If you're familiar with how Caterpillar or truck dealerships work, you'll have one company that'll own a whole pile of dealerships. I believe Finning is one of the biggest Caterpillar dealer groups basically in Canada.
Chace Barber: In the world. They're the largest Cat dealership in the world. They're Western Canada, they have South America, United Kingdom, England. Scotland is all Finning and they have a bunch in Africa. Then we ended up getting a light tower. We made this solar light tower and one of our designs that we came up... I came up with this. I'm pretty proud of it, but we ended up going through the product testing and we got it licensed as a Caterpillar product. It was doing a project where I thought about it because classic trucks were always our passion there. I started thinking about it and the truck I was driving, I was actually driving Old Blue, that old 1969 Kenworth and I realized that a truck is pretty similar to the way a power grid works. It has a huge peak load demand. When you're getting and building that initial inertia, getting the truck moving, you require a ton of power. Once you're up to speed, you don't require much power.
Then you start looking at the advantage of electric motors. Super high torque, incredibly efficient. It's just the battery was the big killer and we tried to make a battery electric. I reserved a Tesla semi. I believe in electric. Yeah. No, I know. Poor financial decisions had been made, but that was before we even started the power systems. When we were just kind of looking, I reserved that Tesla semi five years ago. We're still in Grand Prairie moving drilling rigs at that point. I started thinking, I'm like the batteries aren't there. Batteries are not going to cover a logging truck or a heavy haul truck even if the torque and all the power is there. That 1962 Kenworth, it weighed 9,000 kgs before we started the project. When we were done it, weighed 8,800, so we lost 200 kgs by making it diesel electric and then the government gives us an extra 1,500 so we get 1,700 kgs more in payload.
Gord Magill: One of the things when I started looking into your trucks and the first thing that struck me was this is a locomotive. Locomotives, big trains, that's exactly how they work. There's a huge diesel engine, which drives a generator, which drives the electric motors that are attached directly to the wheels underneath the train, right?This concept that you're using is-
Chace Barber: It's not new.
Gord Magill: It's not new by any stretch of the word, but I'm just like why didn't anyone think about this? Was it the lack of battery tech? Somebody else must have thought of this.
Chace Barber: One of the big issues we actually dealt with, and I would say that it is due to the pioneering that Tesla did do on their batteries that other companies have adapted, and it's the C rating on the battery. The C rating is the amount you can discharge. Say if you have 100 kilowatts battery, if you have a 1C rating, you can discharge 100 kilowatts of power at a time and that battery will drain over an hour. If you have a 4C rating, you can discharge 400 kilowatts of power out of that 100 kilowatt battery, which means it'll only last for 15 minutes, but you can discharge more power. The big advantage there is on a freight train, the weight isn't an issue. They use large capacitor banks, which are incredibly heavy, but can take and discharge at almost an infinite C rating and they would just flow into these large capacitor banks that was most half of the weight of the locomotive and massive capacitors that they would discharge that energy, or it'd be just direct drive motors with variable frequency drives.
What we did differently is by putting in those 4C rated batteries, we could essentially put in a megawatt of drive motor power, 1,000 horsepower drive motor with a very small battery because that battery can then give that peak load demand. The battery at full discharge for what our drive motors could take will deplete the battery in 20, 30 minutes, but more than enough to add 1,000 plus horsepower to get you up and moving. If that C rating wasn't there, you wouldn't be able to do it. I would need to put in almost a megawatt battery in the truck, which would be 40, 50,000 pounds.
Gord Magill: Basically, your trucks are a big Toyota Prius in a manner of speaking
Chace Barber: Technically, it's a little bit different than hybrid for legal purposes, is hybrids are not road tax exempt, and hybrids need to run their motor when the vehicle's moving. They need to run their motor. The motor needs to work with the batteries. The difference with the diesel electric is it can run without the generator. If you took that generator out of the truck, it would make no difference in performance of the vehicle whatsoever. It is 100% able to operate completely off electric. It is just electric that carries around its own electrical power station is the best way to... It is not a hybrid, it's electric with its own power station on board.
Gord Magill: Your truck would have regenerative braking, which is something that hybrid cars have, and the idea being that if you're driving a logging truck specifically in BC, you're in the mountains and there's a whole lot of potential energy from those logs hurdling down the hill that the truck is now harnessing to charge the batteries so that when you run out of inertia rolling the truck, the motor can then kick in and use the power generated from going down the hill to now keep it going. Do I have that correct?
Chace Barber: That's actually why we reserved a Tesla semi years ago was that basic principle. Logging in BC, you're empty going up the mountain, you're loaded coming down. Holding back that power is all wasted energy off that jake. In re-gen, you refill your batteries, you get to the mill, you go back up the hill empty. You could, in theory, run indefinitely off that stored logs and that's not just a theory. There's a few places that are actually doing that. There's a mine up in Norway and another one down in South America that one is running electric train and the re-gen on the train for holding the weight back of the iron ore recharges the batteries for the train to go back up the mountain.
Another one is running haul trucks, electric haul trucks that recharge their batteries going down. The ore is at the top of the mine and where they dump is at the bottom. These trucks produce more energy than they actually consume and they need to have a snubbing unit dissipate the extra energy because it's literally more than this truck ever needs. They've been logging for a few years and have never had to plug in or recharge. A logging truck in BC is the same principle.
Gord Magill: Let's say you're not logging. Let's say we take an Edison Motors truck and we bang it on to a triaxle 53-foot reefer loaded with blueberries on a surry or somewhere in Abbotsford, maybe. We're going to head to Toronto with it and we get out past Calgary and now it's flat until you get to Ontario. What happens?
Chace Barber: You really don't get much for fuel savings. You maybe get 5%. I tell people straight up, but I'm honest with them. It's not the application for it. It's not. You can gear a truck pulling light load, 80,000 pounds of freight on the highway. That's all aerodynamic. You can get it geared to where it's just running at that motor's peak RPM. Those trucks tend to be a little bit slower off the line. They're not running 600s with 18 speeds. You're going to get some savings. It's going to be more efficient, but you might be getting 5, 10, 15%, in that 5 to 15% fuel saving range and that's cool. I get it.
Gord Magill: 5 or 10% on fuel is a big deal in the trucking business, dude. I wouldn't sell yourself short.
Chace Barber: You know what? It is. We'll make them, but it's not the application that really can do the most good with this technology. It exists to help. It'll help it, but look at the heavy things. You're running 1,000 horsepower drive motors. The torque is double the amount of torque of an X15. It's literally double a 550X15s amount of torque and almost double the horsepower. You want to be able to move heavy loads. Putting it onto an 11-axle lowbed, that's where your advantage comes in when you get that much weight moving. Putting it on a vac truck makes sense. Places that need to run external power, we could run off that batteries.
You could run a hydrovac for about three, four hours off the battery alone. That means no engine noise, no pollution from the noise onsite as you're operating. Stop and go gravel trucks. Gravel trucks are often 8-axle gravel wagons. They're stopping and going in city traffic all day long, pulling full 140,000 pound loads of gravel in stop and go traffic. That's where that regenerative braking, slowing the truck down, using a ton of energy to get it moving into the next light, that's where it makes sense. That's where you're going to start seeing that 50, 60% savings. Logging, you're seeing 80%. We're a small company, we can only build so many trucks. I've had a few larger companies really reach out and I've had to tell them, "I'm sorry, [inaudible 00:31:31], but it's not the best showcase of our technology right now." We've got companies interested, that they want to do the heavy haul, the vocational aspect, build a snow plow because it can do all the extra features electronically. That's where it's good at. The harder you work an electric truck, the better it's going to do.
Todd Dills: Mr. Chace Barber, everyone, Merritt, British Columbia and the nation up north. There's a lot more of where that came from, and what amounts to a two-hour conversation mostly centered on his diesel electric design with Edison Motors and potential uses, potential upsides, and various applications. A big thanks, again, to log hauler, Gord Magill, for lending his conversation to us for this one. Magill's host of the Voice of Go(r)d podcast. Again, that Gord with the R in parentheses in the podcast title if you're searching for it out there. You can find the podcast on most of the usual platforms where it's likely you're listening to Overdrive Radio, Spotify, Stitcher, Apple Podcasts. I'll post links to it in the show notes and in the post that houses this podcast, overdriveonline.com/overdrive-radio. If you haven't yet too, if you're enjoying these episodes, give us a review or a thumbs up out there on your platform of choice and subscribe. Here's thanks for that in advance.
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